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97651-update-notes-7162014-page-3
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3 Content You're welcome to comment on my formulas about 7 pages back which showed, given certain assumptions on loot table size, in fact you have the same chance at one particular purple even though the chance of getting any purple is significantly lower. Feel free to criticize the equations. The assumptions could be wrong and I think Carbine should fix things but it is mathematically possible to show exactly what you seem to think isn't possible. | |} ---- I don't believe the system is currently functioning that way in Adventures. People are getting three items for gold adventures. It appears that the initial roll on the "final boss" is only occurring in dungeons, where there actually is a final boss. Adventures are only getting the instance wide rolls for loot, which is why the chance at epics is diluted. | |} ---- We don't work off of assumptions here. We work off of facts. It is used to be 100% chance to drop on Gold. Now, people are running 10-15+ adventures without seeing an epic. Let alone MORE THAN 1, which is supposedly possible. I haven't seen anyone post where they have received more than 1. I applaud your devotion to extinguish the fire that Carbine has created with the attempt at math, based around assumptions. But It isn't accurate, clearly, or people wouldn't still be complaining about it. Why would people complain about a way to get more/better epics? They wouldn't. | |} ---- ---- That is certainly something that should be reported then, if it isn't happening for final events, since its a pretty key part of equalizing the probabilities. | |} ---- Many people in the initial pages of this thread reported three blue items received, no epics for completing gold. If the system worked as described for adventures (and it appears to work as described for dungeons), then the system could be a buff. Even if they fix it though, the bungling of this communication and the initial existence of the assumed bug have done lasting damage to the community. At this point in time, people don't really need more reasons to quit running content. | |} ---- You're math isn't correct. Based on your pattern with 40 rolls you would have a 100% chance to get your item. With randomness you can statistically never have 100% chance so it has to be logarithmic. The correct formula is: 1-(39/40)^n or 1-(1-(1/40))^n Where n=the number of rolls at a loot table of 40 pieces and you're trying for one piece. If n=3 (3 rolls for gold) it's 7.3% not 7.5%. Plus as dinwitt stated (and I showed about 7 pages back) there is supposed to be an added roll against a loot table with epics and whatever blues were in the previous silver table. If 20 pieces total (my guess based on differences between wildstarloot.com and jabbithole.com), it's 5% chance. A now more complicated formula considering both loot tables is: 1 - 1-(1/20) * 1-(1/40)^3 = 11.9% If it's not working like this, there's some scaling factor I don't nkow about, or the loot tables are screwed, the numbers would be quite different. And again this is based on getting a single item, which is what most people would consider running an adventure again for. If you can actually use 2 items, the numbers change again not in favor of the "new" system. | |} ---- This is actually a big nerf. Going from 7.7 to 5.8% is a 25% decrease, it is not a 1.9% decrease. | |} ---- The numbers in parenthesis don't mean what you think they do. Read the whole post again. | |} ---- ---- Nah. I didn't get that 1.9% from your parenthesis, I got it from subtracting 7.7 by 5.8. You are making it seem like a small nerf by putting 2 small numbers right by each other. | |} ---- Ah, I see. It would never even occur to me to think of moving from 7.7 to 5.8 as a 1.9% decrease. 25% may not be a small nerf, but it is less than the sky is falling scenario being painted in this thread. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Let's see what the chance of getting any purple is with the assumed current system. Using Crimelords data as before there are 8 epics and two loot tables of 20 and 40 (plug in different numbers as you like). So: 1 - 1-8/20 * (1-8/40)^3 or 1 - 0.6 * 0.512 = 69.2% chance! This would be a bad PR move if the chance at a single item was kept about the same for gold but now 30% of player base getting gold will get 4 blues. Clearly this could lead to an uprising without better explanation of the overall loot tables and distribution of individual items, which is the real important issue that will decide if I personally run more adventures. That said I think the initial reports were people that only looked at loot during medal rolls since they come during the green haze well after last "boss." | |} ---- ---- I've been posting the same request Mama- I even posted on the general forums but the thread was locked almost immediately after. We need a response Carbine! | |} ---- ---- Yeah I don't have the will to invest 45 minutes into getting 4 eldan tech bits | |} ---- ---- ---- In bold and red is the only place I think you made a mistake. Due to the weighting of the different loot tables I don't think you can't just divide by 8. You'd have to do: 1 - {1-0.0625 * 1-(1/40)^3} = 13.1% I wonder if the two drops from crimelords (I apparently never noticed this one) and malgrave were an accident and this is correcting that mistake. Before it was 23% as you noted but possibly should have been 12.5%. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Exactly, makes you wonder what we are supposed to think. Any kind of answer would be nice, even a flat "No we are not changing it back", so we know. Oh well my engineer alt is up to 32, since two of my five man group didn't even log in today at all because of this change. Makes me a sad chua. :wacko: | |} ---- ---- Its not bad to make a mistake. Its bad when the whole world sees your mistake and you don't have the courage to admit it. | |} ---- ---- ---- That's not enough time… I'd say they need to look at data for at least a week. Chill. | |} ---- So at least they need to make a comment about it. | |} ---- ---- More like Square Enix, tbh. I have this weird Atma feeling that made me quit FFXIV. Well, at least i never had for that hobby the same expectations i had for this game, but still... i'm not willing to praise the RNG god for a loot. I already was unlucky before the patch, and with tons of runs i've seen only one purple and even worse than the blue i was wearing. Now i lost every single particle of fun at the thought of the horrible choice i have to get some decent gear without crafting it. I feel NOT rewarded for my efforts. And tbh i don't want to find lots of unexperienced people engaging the end game content with crafted gear. Gear has to be the reward for a well-played ton, what makes the skill emerge in a game where the better chance to get some gear is by crafting it instead of playing the content in a right learning curve? p.s.: i'm sorry for my horrible english, i hope you still get my point. | |} ---- ---- ---- and an early gold mess up WILL still result in people abandoning | |} ---- WildStar is bleeding players.... listening is not enough. Players have been extremely tolerant and patient on the issues... and the issues caused by fixes... and this change was the last straw for them. The devs are pretty active with their PTR and are silent on this topic, as if it's just going to go away. Unfortunately, the players are. | |} ---- Delusion does not justify this shit storm of RNG stacked on RNG. It is a horrible and forced progression halt for everyone trying to gear towards end game. Gold should always award epics. There is nothing more than need be said. Either get rid of the rankings all together, have a toggle for veteran/normal runs AND disable disband option once the encounter has been started for both adventures and dungeons. | |} ---- Exactly this. --- On a related note, ran veteran adventures for approximately 4 hours, all gold and only 1 epic drop. I'd say something seriously hooey is going on or this is a deliberate gear grind in place. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I ran some dungeons last night finally (thank you DDOS, for nothing happening the night before) which gave some insight into how drops are working. On a bronze Skullcano run, where we failed the final challenge, we only received two drops, 1 from final boss loot table and 1 from the instance wide loot table. Now the patch notes make a lot more sense. The gold and silver medal loot isn't in a loot table of its own and providing an additional drop, its in the loot table of the final boss and the chance for it is in the final boss's drop. So that 20 item table assumption is out the window, because the silver + gold + boss's old loot = new final boss loot table. However, that also means that the line about a flat bonus chance to select from the boss's superb list includes the old gold rewards. So we probably end up with something like this: 1 - ((1 - (1/y)) * (1 - (1/x + c))^3) Where x is the total number of items in the instance, y is the total number of items in the old silver table, old gold table, and final boss's old loot table, and c is the constant bonus to purples. Alternatively, we might have something like this (I am almost certain I have this one wrong, its been a while since my statistics class): 1 - ((1 - (1/y)) * (1 - ((1 - z) + (z * (1 - 1/t))))^3) Where y is the same, z is the probability of choosing the purple table, and t is the number of purples. It all depends on how that line, about superb items having a flat bonus chance, was implemented. Either way, there is something more appealing about these models, because it allows Carbine more control over purple drop rates without them needing to mess with table numbers. They could probably even hotfix a change in, without a client patch, if they thought it was necessary. | |} ---- Right now, there's terrible rng in terms of epic items from veteran adventures. There's 1:40 chance of getting the item you want (assuming all the items have the same drop rate). After that, there's also the random rune slots, where you not only need item to roll with good number of slots, but also with the correct type of slots given your role and class. And let's face it, the way stats work, epic for DPS with 2 earth slots is not going to be upgrade over blue with 4 dps slots. Everyone hates RNG in loot. For me it's borderline acceptable in WoW, especially with justice/valor system helping to overcome crap RNG streaks. Here it's just over the top. However, weren't the medal system changes praised as good thing when they were originally announced? I'm really wondering, how many people complaining here were also praising the system back in the original thread. I'm wondering if they are just unhappy about their sucky RNG or if they are just so terrible at probability calculus that they weren't able to figure out what exactly the changes meant in the first place. | |} ---- ---- If we wanted to do math while playing a MMORPG we'd be studying it. because RNG stacking is all part of the fun of progressing? | |} ---- Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the problem is ok, or that it shouldn't be fixed, or that it shouldn't be prioritized. In fact I've voiced a few ideas I have to fix it. But my point was, people these days are too spoiled by the big successful MMO with a track record, and they expect everything new to be the same right off the shelf. And when it's not they rage quit way too quickly, the game dies, or worse, goes F2P. Vanilla WoW was every bit the cluster f*k Wildstar is now, but no one knew any different at the time. That's what I mean by saying that todays MMO crowd would not have allowed WoW to survive. Folks need to be a bit more patient. That doesn't mean Carbine doesn't need to get off their collective a*ses and get to work, their were lessons to learn from Vanilla WoW. And patience isn't free, it needs to be earned and rewarded. But it's a bit premature to assume it won't be once the dust settles. The rate we're going now, I expect to see server consolidation soon......sigh | |} ---- ---- Sorry, but Blizzard is totally responsible for creating that massive segment within the MMO market. Most of the MMO veterans left after BC, which killed "Vanilla WoW". Sure, some stayed with friends and family... others couldn't even make it past WotLK. Other MMOs in the post-WoW era, have struggled with bots, class imbalance, and lack of end-game content. Although Carbine has done a great job with the bots and end-game content, they have far more core issues plaguing mechanics, abilities, PvP, and the many issues that hit the adventure, dungeon, and raid content that make them more difficult by issues, rather than by challenge. I love WildStar and think it's one of the best MMOs in the post-WoW era to come along. Unfortunately, even my tolerance is super thin now, having experienced the many class issues, content issues, false banned for a week (horrible support response times), and updates like this one that slaps you in the face for an issue that was really lower priority than the many others. The reward for time/experience has degraded and Carbine REALLY needs to step up and address that. Adding new content (e.g. new zones and BGs) is really a PR update to lure new players at this point, which doesn't stop the bleeding of players that helped launch the MMO. THAT is the Blizzard way. | |} ---- ---- *cupcake* the math. Did you get any epics from bronze run? | |} ---- indeed *cupcake* the math. Don't get epics from gold runs let alone bronze lol | |} ---- ---- ---- Which is why all they needed to do was drop disband and penalize for disbanding :/ | |} ---- I love the game but this stinks as a money move. There's no reason for them to do this other than pressure for them to make more money. Not that I'm against them making money but taking away a prize people were used to and then yanking it is simply greedy. There's no reason to do this other than to create conditions to sell more CREED. It's like a drug dealer cutting cocaine to make more money. It's a shady, low-life tactic. | |} ---- That certainly seemed like the simplest thing to do. And make the disband penalty at least a bit longer than the average DPS que time I liked that you can buy raid gear with elder gems once you've defeated the boss that drops it, that way you don't have to depend on the boss drop. I realize raid boss kills require more progression, so one kill is sufficient to have earned the gear access, and that quick dungeon/adventure runs aren't equal enough progression. What was wrong with the dungeon completion currency model that WoW uses, get enough token, and you can buy a piece. You can be hardcore and grind them, or just be casual and get them when you can, set your own pace. Instead they tinker with the loot system. I understand the angst among you, I share it. I'm just saddened that so many are so quick to throw in the towel. Carbine better listen, chime in, because there is no "fix it later and folks will come back". SWTOR proved that fact | |} ---- ---- Creed appears to be on hiatus at the moment, so I doubt they're part of this conspiracy of yours. Or did you mean CREDD? How exactly is this going to sell more CREDD? | |} ---- You have a good attitude. The pew pew in this game is fun. It's why people are still around, for now. What also is fun is logging off and knowing you progressed your character in some way, and the level of RNG related to the time and effort committed really blows in Wildstar right now. I can go play Hearth Stone, get totally messed over by RNG, but spend only 15 minutes, maybe grab some gold from a quest completed in the process, open a pack, see a new technique, and move on. | |} ---- Hehe, no it isn't. | |} ---- You're not comparing HearthStone to WildStar, though right? I mean, that's like comparing it to Monopoly. Which incidentally isn't a 15 minute game and those dice can screw you over good... | |} ---- I believe his theory is two part: 1. that the only reliable way to get decent gear is to buy it crafted. The quickest way to make money is buy credd n sell it. 2. if you want decent gear the other way, you need to grind grind grind for weeks on end... thus you need to sub to buy the time. = more credd. I disagree that that was a motivating factor, but I think that's the core of his argument. With regard to the pew pew'ing I enjoy it too, I do! But if I want to pew pew in a game, then I'll buy a normal game for $60, and be able to play it all the time, anytime I want my fix. If I'm paying a monthly subscription, on top of buying the game, then I want more than just pew pew. | |} ---- Actually, quite a few players started going back to SWToR 6 months after it went F2P. Most of the issues that plagued release have been smoothed over and they've been adding content regularly. Unfortunately, as a F2P game with a sub model... you can easily drop more $ than with WildStar's sub-only model. SWToR is fun to play now... but WildStar was supposed to be one of the most fun and humorous MMOs available. It still has some fun and quite a bit of humor, but it's nowhere close to the level of entertaining fun it should be. | |} ---- No. :) | |} ---- Actually, that's a really good point. At least in Monopoly, every time you go round the board you collect $200, which is enough to buy something with. Imagine playing Monopoly, but every time you go round the board you get $1, and a small chance to randomly gain a property. | |} ---- ---- Thank you, someone with brains instead of pointing out aesthetics. If he's too cynical to understand the meaning despite the mistake, his critical thinking skills is obviously lacking. It not remotely a conspiracy, people are out there to make money and some make ethical choices to make money and some choose unethical choices to make money. This is product dilution. You get people hooked with a great quality product, then dilute it to squeeze more money. | |} ---- Imagine having to use 2 dice with 21 sides in Monopoly to roll for whether you get a chance to buy said property | |} ---- That would be awesome end-game Monopoly... I could skip past so many Hotels! | |} ---- lol. so true. | |} ---- ---- So tired of the personal attacks these last few days. Yes, it was a lame joke. Hopefully you remember it and stop calling it CREED. I still don't see how this is forcing people into purchasing CREDD. Adventure blues aren't mind blowing, but they are sufficient. Money at level 50 is easy enough to come by once gem capped. And crafted gear is cheap, especially if you work directly with the crafter thanks to the cheap commodities. Additionally, crafted gear is often superior to the adventure purples, so if your game plan involved crafted gear then you don't care much about the rarity. And if you were gunning for the purples you probably aren't super concerned about your progression speed and don't mind taking time to farm for your gear. In both situations, this change doesn't increase the likeliness of someone buying CREDD. Why are purples analogous to Go? Shouldn't they be Free Parking, a rare event with a big payoff (at least in the house rules I used, since Free Parking gives all the tax revenue to whoever lands there)? https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/98869-on-the-recent-loot-changes/ | |} ---- Effort = reward. End of discussion. Obviously forced time sink and artificial gating to impede progression is obvious and poor form from Carbine 1 month into release. Wildstar is the Diablo 3 of MMORPG's. RNG Crafting, looting, runes, adventures and dungeons. You name it RNG is smothered everywhere and now RNG further dictates the amount of time players need to invest to get geared with shitty percentages and medals actually meaning *cupcake* all. You like it then kudos to you, majority of players replying in here and many more in game who don't bother with these one sided fan boy riddled forums cannot comprehend the idiocy behind this loot change. | |} ---- Cheap joke, cheap jab. You focused on the aesthetics and I called you out on it. They don't force people to do anything, just someone isn't forced to gamble. But it's punitive to those who don't have a luxury of time to grind it out, earn enough to make enough to craft. People who are addicted to the game, who don't have the time You are making these people to consider these kind of choices against their better judgment. If the company want a F2P model, they should just do it. However I signed up for a subscription based model where the playing field should be more leveled and for a company that tries to center itself around "community," making these ethical choices is the difference between being a great MMO versus another MMO, just like these choices define a greatness of a city. If this was an ethical decision to begin with, there wouldn't be the reaction there is. Ethics is not about forcing people into certain actions. It's about making choices with consideration to the community. | |} ---- If all I want to do is pew-pew, there are plenty of other games that let me do just that (TF2, et. al.) That's not my thing though, RPG's are and I mean in the sense of gear progression. I also really like group content, but after a certain number of runs through it if there's no progression it just becomes a chore. They just took a giant nerfbat to non-raid loot. I did read 7ofsword's post and I understand the intention, but things are still seriously out of kilter. Crafted gear is better because players have better control over stats and rune-slots. IMO if you eliminate the RNG on the number of slots (Adv: 3 slots, Dung: 4 slots) and make them Omni it will go a looooong way to relieving the "crap" drops. Carbine has to tread very carefully here. Crafting is huge, make it irrelevant and people will leave. | |} ---- I don't understand the pedestal that people are placing the old loot system on. Just because the loot was purple didn't make it useful, and the majority of the time you were salvaging it. The wrong blues isn't much different than a wrong purple. Additionally, that RNG you hate so much works both ways. Just as bad rune slots can ruin a purple, great rune slots can turn a mediocre blue into an amazing upgrade. And now that you are getting significantly more loot you are also more likely to see those blues with amazing runeslots. Any crafter will tell you that RNG is just a numbers game, and the more chances you have the more likely you are to see the rare but amazing result. And finally, if you are in a situation where you don't need adventure blues and are consistently getting gold in adventures then it is time to move on. You are more than sufficiently geared to start learning the veteran dungeons. And the great thing about veteran dungeons is that you are rewarded for playing well, because the challenge loot tables have some very good items on them and challenges are all about killing bosses and clearing instances well. A hybrid core is less than 10g. Basic commodities are less than 20s each. Adventus gear needs one hybrid core and a few basic commodities per craft. It is not expensive to craft, period. Epochos armorer and outfitter isn't much more. Epochos tailor is the outlier, but you are usually better with expert tailor gear over the expert research tailor gear. Your premise is, as I understand it, that they nerfed adventure loot to encourage people interested in progression to purchase crafted gear, and the cost of crafted gear encourages people to buy CREDD to afford the gear. It is flawed because crafted gear isn't expensive, because players interested in fast progression were already purchasing crafted gear regardless of the loot change, and because players not interested in fast progression won't feel the impetus to gear up faster than they can farm items and gold. I am curious, though, under what ethical framework you are judging Carbine. Also, that word you are using, aesthetics, I don't think it means what you think it does. | |} ---- ---- You've said this before, and it's still wrong. The difference is that the "wrong purple" could be right for someone else in the group. The wrong blue is garbage to everyone. As long as there's a better option, nobody is going to sink resources improving a "right blue." It's a bad foundation. You don't build on it. | |} ---- ---- What they didn't address is that if the government started giving out Lamborghinis and then someone in said government said "Hey! what are you doing?! These people don't need Lamborghinis! plus its wasteful!" The government shuts down the "Free Lamborghini program" and doesn't take back any of the Lamborghinis. There would be a civil war. 1. There are thousands of players fully decked out in complete epics, I know because I am one of them. The problem is that when you're trying to form a group to do dungeons or higher, people want THE BEST, therefore they are actually advertising "LF X Player for dungeon - no blue scrubs." Meaning I know the fights, I have the blues to do the dungeon, but no one wants me (unless i am epic'ed out). I could queue for vet adventures or dungeons, but lately the queues have been completely miserable due to the player base leaving and people not seeing any point to queue. 2. Even in guilds, people are segregating according to epics vs blues. Guildies in groups of fully decked out epics have become the concentration (especially with all the class issues) and people in blues have unofficially become the "alt chapter" of the guild. 3. Have you ACTUALLY tried doing a dungeon in full blues vs full epics? It is harder. I know, as i've done both. 4. Hardcore isn't determined by mindlessly grinding EASY CONTENT over and over and over again till your eyes bleed in order to get rewarded for it. HARDCORE is determined by clearing HARD TO ACCOMPLISH content and getting rewarded for it with gear needed to start on the next tier of content that would be impossible WITHOUT the drops from the last HARD TO ACCOMPLISH tier of content. As it stands now, Vet Adventures were always easy sauce. People just didn't know how to do them and QQ'd. I feel no sense of accomplishment when i do a vet gold run. When I do dungeons they're challenging but not impossible. I feel like I didn't even need ANY of the vet adventures to be prepared for dungeons. However, no one wants to do them because the reward system is RNG with RNG on top of RNG with a side of RNG. So they pay progression guilds PLAT to run them through just to knock out their stuff for attunement. Meaning this worthless medal change patch has disincentivized the first 2 tiers of the game. It has also made a HUGE chunk of the community on my server move on. 5. With Archeage, Everquest Next, The Repopulation, and WoW expansion coming out and the player base satisfaction for time put into the game (outside of progression guilds) being at an all time low, i give this game 5 months (without meaningful changes) before its put out to the pasture on F2P mode. Which is sad, because against better judgement I was looking to this game to be my next long term investment. I'm already enjoying Archeage way more. Not because Its better than Wildstar, but because I am rewarded for my hard work, and the hard work is consistant. I don't have to shut my brain off for 30-45 min adventure/dungeon runs from now until eternity with little to no guarantee of reward. 6. Many will not care about this change, as (like myself) they have full purples and are moving on. A TON of people that didn't have the advantage of spamming vet adventures 24/7 after hitting level 50 in 4 days of 24/7 leveling are now getting to a level 50 community completely toxic, lethargic, without any desire or motivation to do content like the last group of 50s. Whats worse is that these people are hitting 50, struggling to gear up now, and will already be gimped and excluded from PUGs AND Guild advancement as they're coming to the fight (Dungeons & Raids) in their walmart armor, while everyone else is playing in their Versace. Thats not their fault, thats Carbine's fault. | |} ---- ---- Should have locked this thread since the conversation has moved and evolved in the new thread. No point in having this thread discussion continue forward. | |} ---- There, I have to disagree. Diablo 3: Reaper of Souls adressed the major issues concerning the loot and the AH, and is right now a game I enjoy playing a lot. At the moment, Wildstar has more RNG than Diablo 3. *Shivers* | |} ---- That's because the devs don't give a shit about Wildstar. | |} ---- well, you can't say that at not even two months from launch. Diablo 3 was really *cupcake*ed up and it took... how long? two years before they finally thrown the messed ah away. I don't want to believe that the devs aren't caring about theyr game, but i think they're yust doing the same old problem they always do: they don't talk to the community, they don't share theyr thoughts and projects to adjust the game. And the community respond is always an enraged and delusional one. Locked threads and a "no comment" attitude definitely don't help. | |} ---- ---- Yeah, but Diablo 3 dropped loot left and right. Here you only get loot from the end of adventures/dungeons; unless of course you get lucky on a trash mob. Wildstar: Need gear to progress in dungeons/raids. Diablo: No raids- no "dungeons". Constant loot dropping. /edit I do love Wildstar, but as a customer i'm just not satisfied with how they are ruining thier game. | |} ---- ---- ---- Doubtful, Carbine wants to target Hardcore. So when numbers are looked at by NC Soft, they will take over and adjust what Carbine won't. That is when we lose what little we love about W* | |} ---- ---- ---- no there was a bug making it miss partially that was introduced the patch before | |} ---- ---- ---- also most of the best in slot pre raid items are easily crafted, IE no need to do adventures at all except for attunement... game is basically free to play not sure why so many people are being whiny feels like wow community rolled into wildstar makes me sick. | |} ---- ---- That's an admission of lack of leadership skills. Malgrave is 75% tank influenced. If you couldn't tell the medic to follow you, that's your social retardedness. I get gold with pugs all the time, even gotten gold with 3 DPSES with NO EXPERIENCE. Got 7 yesterday with 3-4 silvers. That's incredibly good pug ratio. This is also my first MMO where I tanked so i'm not exactly a stellar or even "good" tank. But what really pisses me off is I grinded the shit outta this adventure and only rolled on epics 5 times of so and none what I wanted. Just to low-ball how many golds i gotten off this map, at least 30 in the past week. I didn't even sniff the item I was grinding for. I'm glad I gotten the epics when I did, that I only need 1 or 2. The people who got into the game late got screwed badly. All I know is I wouldn't create a new alt at this point. If I didn't get as far as I did with my toon, I would quit. Carbine doesn't believe in giving everyone a fair shot. They created the "haves" and "have nots." The early adopters got an easier path to epics than the ones who recently joined or were slowed to level. Why don't these people have the same shot as the hardcores, the early adopters. Gotta stop catering to those selfish masochism crowd who derive pleasure from such cruelty of already having their stuff, laughing at others who now have to grind 200% more to get the same things. Hardcore is giving them too much credit for the sick minds some of these elitists have. I met some really shady, sadistic people in my life. None of them have acted remotely cruel as some of the elitiests in this game. It's like some of these people been bullied heavily and have become big bullies themselves. | |} ----